Didja say 27 degrees F??? What I would'nt give for a 27 degree F Christmas! Where I am, in Perth, the temperature climbed to 102 degrees F, and the heatwave has continued into its sixth day with temps over the 100 mark!
Phew!
moggy lover
JoinedPosts by moggy lover
-
-
-
-
259
The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed
by FaceTheFacts induring the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.
naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.
the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.
-
-
moggy lover
I think you are being unnecessarily pedantic here and are placing conclusions on Jonsson's words that were certainly not originally intended.
1. He does not say that the 70 year period of Jer 25:11 ran from 609-539 BC. He concedes that it may have done so, but it could just as easily have been a typical Middle Eastern figure of speech current at the time for an approximation of 70 years. If the period began in 605 BC and ended in 539 BC then we have a period of some 66 years which as I said is an approzimation. The point is that no one knows the exact date for the starting point. Not the Watchtower, not you.
2. The contention behind Jer 25:11 is misplaced by you. The emphasis is on what the two statements made in that text mean, and what the Watchtower makes it mean. According to the NAB translation, Jer 25:11 says:
"This whole land will be a ruin and a desert. Seventy years these nations will be enslaved to the king of Babylon"
Jonsson's contention is that the Watchtower reads this text as: "This whole land will be a ruin and a desert [for] seventy years. These nations will be enslaved to the king of Babylon". The "seventy years" mentioned here answers the question: "How long will the nations be enslaved to Babylon?" and not, as the Watchtower interprets it, "How long will this whole land be desolate?" The first sentence has no time limit, the second does.
As one can see, despite the fact that Jer 25:1 makes it clear that Judah and Jerusalem are being addressed, it is equally clear that, as far as verse 11 is concerned, the nations around about are included in a specific time period [70 years] and prophecy [enslavement].
3. The Neo-Babylonian conquest under Nabopolassar, actually began in 612 BC, when Nineveh, the capital of Assyria fell to the invading Babylonians. The inhabitants were enslaved, but the Assyrian Empire barely survived by moving its capital to Harran. By this defeat, much of Assyria's fighting force were enslaved in Babylon. But in 609 BC the Assyrians suffered another major defeat and Harran was captured by the Babylonians.
Assyria was now so weak that it no longer could fight off the Babylonians without allies. The capital was again moved, this time to Chargemish, and here in 605 BC the final Assyro-Babylonian battle was fought. The inexorable tide of Babylonian conquest was riding athwart the entire ME area. Nothing would stop them. The Assyrians and their Egyptian allies lost, and Assyria disappeared from off the map. Suffering the same fate it had meted out to others.
4. The use of the prophetic element in Jer 25:11 is both post positive as well as future. And not just one way as you suggest with your Hebraic techno-babble. By 605 BC elements of Jeremiah's prophecy had already began its fulfillment, but the major portion, still future, would stand as a sign of Judah's continuing apostasy till 539 BC.
-
259
The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed
by FaceTheFacts induring the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.
naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.
the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.
-
-
-
4
How Does One Get The Study Articles For The Wt Study?
by moggy lover inthis might seem a silly question but i have not been to a watchtower study in 28 years so am unfamiliar with the latest set up.
the study watchtower magazines are not printed anymore as they are available only on the internet, as electronic editions.. ok. so how does one actually bring or get a printed copy for the study?
is one expected to print his/her own individusl copy, or are they available at the desk for those who can't print these?
-
-
moggy lover
That is interseting. I did not know that the Study editions of the Wt magazine came out in two editions. One an electronic edition from the Net, AND a printed edition available at the local KH.
Does a Watchtower Follower need to pay for this or is he allowed to just take it and hopefully reimburse the publishers in the contribution box?
-
4
How Does One Get The Study Articles For The Wt Study?
by moggy lover inthis might seem a silly question but i have not been to a watchtower study in 28 years so am unfamiliar with the latest set up.
the study watchtower magazines are not printed anymore as they are available only on the internet, as electronic editions.. ok. so how does one actually bring or get a printed copy for the study?
is one expected to print his/her own individusl copy, or are they available at the desk for those who can't print these?
-
-
moggy lover
This might seem a silly question but I have not been to a Watchtower study in 28 years so am unfamiliar with the latest set up. The study Watchtower magazines are not printed anymore as they are available only on the internet, as electronic editions.
OK. So how does one actually bring or get a printed copy for the study? Is one expected to print his/her own individusl copy, or are they available at the desk for those who can't print these? If someone does not have access to a computer, how does he or she do pre-study, underlining the appropriate paragraphs to answer? Do friends print these prior to the study for these people, or what?
Also the "Our Kinfdom Ministries", are they still being printed, or are they only available as e-editions as we get them here?
-
55
Let me get this straight about the FDS latest thinking
by wha happened? inso the fds does not include the apostles.
what part of the gospels aren't food at the proper time?
or am i just mixed up on who the fds are..
-
-
moggy lover
We know that the present day Watchtower Leadership is clear about there being no FDS in the first century. But was there a GB at that time? They have not make that very clear and I think there is where the confusion lies.
What role did the apostles and their sidekicks play in the first century? If they were a GB, what role did they play? It could'nt be providing food at the proper time, since that is the work of the FDS, who did not exist back then.
Evidently their task was as religious idiologues whose main task was to define what was to be believed, and to ensure unity/conformity by being empowered to expel dissenters. Thus, no actual food at the proper time was cooked, and the rank and file were not encouraged to be hungry.
-
7
Available: "The Kingdom That Never Came" - English translation of book by Norwegian Ex-JW
by PrincessPeachz inrepost here for lurkers and newbies... if you would like a pdf copy please pm me, i have permission to distribute the english translation electronically from the author's, joseph wilting, family (my family)..
-
-
moggy lover
Gasp! It's been several years since I PM'd anyone. How do I PM you? How much does a copy cost? I am certainly interested.
-
12
When did the Watchtower first raise the idea of 1919?
by moggy lover inwith all the changes arising from the shifts in watchtower "understanding" of its own prophetic ministry, i think we can discern a slow but detirmined interest in elavating the date 1919 to almost iconic standards - soon to displace the other date of significance, 1914.. my question to those with access to watchtower material is: when in fact did the watchtower leadership first mention this date as having any significance?
popular watchtower mythology proceeds along the lines of jehovah coming to his temple in that year, and on inspecting the then watchtower leadership, chosing them to be his exclusive spokespersons on earth.. although this supposedly took place in 1919, it was certainly not in that year that there was any awareness that such was occurring.
it was many years after when this first began to be pressed.
-
-
moggy lover
So the light begins to dawn.
1. From Leolaia we know that some nascent awareness of the significance of 1919 was present in that very year itself, through Uncle Joe's biblical importunings.
2. But this was tentative at best and featured other aspects of the Watchtower's self proclaimed prophetic ministry which were unrelated to this inspection and selection process that is so explicitly pressed today. [IE, the "Elijah-Elisha work" which has gone the way of all fiction, into the scrapheap of Forgettable Literature]
3. From Terry we can see that the period 1918-1925 was a period of JFR's bid for personal consolidation of power. What did the Communists of a previous age call it? Cult of Personality? By sucessfully destroying the cult of personality build around the revered figure of CT Russell, JFR succeeded in erecting the edifice of his own cult of personality. It appears that the irony was lost on him.
4. From Phizzy we can detirmine that the first mention of an "inspection" of some bizarre entity called "the antitypical temple" by "The Lord Jesus Christ" in 1918 was made in the August 1, 1926 Wt magazine, a year after the 1925 fiasco.
Significantly I think, one can see two propositions within this incredulous develpment.
1. A relatively high Christalogical manifestation as in calling Christ the "Lord Jesus Christ" something that is fairly infrequent in later Watchtower theology.
2. A corresponding minimalization of a certain deity, Jehovah, whose significance in Watchtower theology had not yet evolved.
5. From Ann O'Maly we learn that a year later, in 1927, the final act in the devaluation of CTR when he was demoted from his position of the "faithful and wise servant" [KJV] and the corresponding elevation of JFR and his coterie of sycophants to that position was enacted.
Oddly enough I must admit that I assumed that this theological development of the Watchtower leadership being chosen out of an exacting scrutiny made by Christ Himself would have taken longer to evolve. 1927 seems fairly early to me. I imagined that a clearer understanding of this deity, Jehovah and his significance in Watchtower theological develpment would have come first.
-
12
When did the Watchtower first raise the idea of 1919?
by moggy lover inwith all the changes arising from the shifts in watchtower "understanding" of its own prophetic ministry, i think we can discern a slow but detirmined interest in elavating the date 1919 to almost iconic standards - soon to displace the other date of significance, 1914.. my question to those with access to watchtower material is: when in fact did the watchtower leadership first mention this date as having any significance?
popular watchtower mythology proceeds along the lines of jehovah coming to his temple in that year, and on inspecting the then watchtower leadership, chosing them to be his exclusive spokespersons on earth.. although this supposedly took place in 1919, it was certainly not in that year that there was any awareness that such was occurring.
it was many years after when this first began to be pressed.
-
-
moggy lover
Thanks Leolaia for that. The impression I am getting is that the 1919 doctrine was an evolving teaching with several nuanced edges that do not relate to each other.
For instance, the above, although first acknowledged as early as 1919, did not recognize any particular relationship between the Watchtower Leadership and this Jehovah. Indeed, it was always assumed that CT Russell, and later Joe Rutherford, spoke in some unspecified way, for God.
But that this deity actually intervened in some way, and manifested some sort of preference for these guys in 1919 specifically, was a quantum leap in the theological blueprint of the Watchtower.
So, while slowly making its tentative appearance in 1919 itself, a fully rounded articulation of what that date signified would need to await some later, more audacious revelation.
-
12
When did the Watchtower first raise the idea of 1919?
by moggy lover inwith all the changes arising from the shifts in watchtower "understanding" of its own prophetic ministry, i think we can discern a slow but detirmined interest in elavating the date 1919 to almost iconic standards - soon to displace the other date of significance, 1914.. my question to those with access to watchtower material is: when in fact did the watchtower leadership first mention this date as having any significance?
popular watchtower mythology proceeds along the lines of jehovah coming to his temple in that year, and on inspecting the then watchtower leadership, chosing them to be his exclusive spokespersons on earth.. although this supposedly took place in 1919, it was certainly not in that year that there was any awareness that such was occurring.
it was many years after when this first began to be pressed.
-
-
moggy lover
With all the changes arising from the shifts in Watchtower "understanding" of its own prophetic ministry, I think we can discern a slow but detirmined interest in elavating the date 1919 to almost iconic standards - soon to displace the other date of significance, 1914.
My question to those with access to Watchtower material is: When in fact did the Watchtower Leadership first mention this date as having any significance? Popular Watchtower mythology proceeds along the lines of Jehovah coming to his temple in that year, and on inspecting the then Watchtower leadership, chosing them to be his exclusive spokespersons on earth.
Although this supposedly took place in 1919, it was certainly not in that year that there was any awareness that such was occurring. It was many years after when this first began to be pressed. My understanding is that this was not till the 1930s. Is that correct?
Cheers.